Mysteries

[JimLowranceSr]

Guys, I'm sorry that I haven't piped up and presented my outlay for review. I have had a couple of setbacks and inconveniences of late. Some things that I once knew(?) aren't as clear now. I still have issues with the rapture and it's succession. I believe for us to have a true timeline of sequences, we must have in our own minds a thought of what is before and after. The pre-tribbers are going to have a different timeline than us mid-tribbers. What I may think is happening to God's people, still here, would cause a different timeline between our thinking.

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Little things like the 5th angel with the key to the bottomless pit. He released locusts that could sting like scorpions. They couldn't hurt the grass or trees, or ANY green thing. (Locusts that did not hurt grass or trees?) They could torment the men who did not have the seal of God in their forehead. So there were men who were sealed by God still present at that time.

Now, it says, Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

We have them, they, and their. Who was the who? to THEM it was given, which them? That THEY, who is the They at this point, and is it the same They that follows? Who was the THEIR who's torment was the torment of a scorpion? Was it the tormentor or the tormented?

Roll that over in your mind and get back to me.

[sonnyd]

Bro. Jim:

I am certainly glad to see you posting and hope you are feeling well. You have raised some very pertinent points that could define each point of view concerning the rapture. 'WHAT HAPPENS BEFORE AND AFTER'?

I would like to start with something that happens after the rapture. I will use a scripture you used in your post to begin.

Re 9:4
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth,
neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

We are at the sounding of the 5th trumpet at this point. Only two trumpets left until the wrath of God is over. Look back before the 1st trumpet sounded:

Re 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The 12 thousand from each tribe takes place right after that verse. 144,000 total. These are the ones that the locust were not to touch.

Another question arises in my thought from another discussion. We of the church of our Lord Jesus are sealed by the Holy Ghost, and if the Holy Ghost remains after the resurrection, will these 144,000 thousand need the seal of God in their foreheads and the seal of the Holy Ghost also?

Perhaps some thoughts on what happens before the rapture later.

Them, they and their is a point I have not thought of before. If it is something other than the insects that come to mind is very interesting. I will have to wait for comments concerning this.

[JimLowranceSr]

I was looking at it from a standpoint of saying:

And the landowner told the axe men, "All trees who's sap has gone down can be cut down, but all trees who's sap has not gone down cannot be cut." They were assured that this would be the rule. Who was assured, the axe men or the trees? Were the trees assured of their safety? Were the axe men assured of the safety?

That's where I am coming from.

What is the timeline if these 144,000 are the Jews left here with the seal of God, is it saints still left here, what? It makes a big difference. Is there a difference in the seal of God and the seal of the Holy Ghost? What and how?

[sonnyd]

In the example you posted (to me) represents the saved and the unsaved, and only God can decide that.

In my previous post I stated that this was a happening after the rapture. If this is true, then the 144,000 can not be the saint of our Lord Jesus since his church is not longer here. The timeline would be after the rapture

Concerning the seal of God in their foreheads, I can see no other evidence that would dispute the fact of a visible mark in the flesh. These are still living humans.
Analyze this a little further. The mark of God's people, Israel. was circumcision. The mark of the church of Jesus, the infilling of the Holy Ghost, Once again in dealing with Israel the mark will be in the flesh, Gods seal in their forehead.

It is my belief that all people in last years will have a mark, after the rapture.
If not the seal of God, then the mark of the beast.

I hope this make my position clearer.

[EJFH]

Bro. SonnyD, I just read your last post, and I think I agree with it all, including the part about the marks. Just wanted to point that out, as that almost never happens when it comes to matters of eschatology!

Seriously, I think even those of us who disagree on a number of things will find some common ground, maybe more than we thought, here. I've owed my time line for a while. Maybe I'll put it up tonight, in bare-bones terms.

[JimLowranceSr]

Brothers, are there not some that believe that there will still be people saved after the rapture? During the tribulations and wrath of God? I don't, but I'm clearing some smoke.

[sonnyd]

Bro EJFH, it is good that we find common ground to stand on and I think that we will find much that we agree to. If you have not read my post 'Revelations 6th chapter', I have given some of my ideas about the time line we are seeking.

Bro Jim, I agree with the point that no salvation (filling of the Holy Ghost)
will happen after the beast appears. Even thought the church will still be here for first 3 1/2 years of the Beast's reign (my opinion). Because the power of and the miracles he will perform, no one will think of any other God except him. It is during this time that the Beast will make war on the saints.

The salvation of Israel (after the rapture) will be the 144,000 that are sealed not all natural Israelies. These are the one that fullfill the below scripture:

Ro 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[sonnyd]

Have we given up on the idea of forming a sequence of events for Revelations. I was hoping we could see how many things we could agree on concerning this subject. It would be more than you can imagine.

I have my ideas on the events in a banner form but don't think the software on the forum will allow me to post it, or I haven't found a way yet. Of course I am a computer dummie.

[spartan1]

Bro Jim has me puzzled....an easy thing to do....

If no saints after the rapture....and the man of sin appears some say after the rapture....

Then how can the Beast make ware against non existant saints since they are all raptured?

[Psalm97]

sonnyd You could take a screenshot of the banner as it appears on your computer screen (might have to take more than one screenshot) and post the picture here. Print Screen key is usually at the top right of the keyboard, to the right of the F12 key. When you hit that key the computer will save a picture of the current screen, then you can open a picture editor (like Irfanview, which you can download for free) and hit Paste.

Alternatively you might have to resort to retyping the whole thing vertically so it will stay in line when you copy and paste it anywhere.

spartan1 as I understand it, after the rapture we return to this world with God for the millennial reign. I could be wrong of course, because it hasn't happened yet. This is why pre-, mid- and post-trib believers will never reconcile on when exactly we are out of here relative to the tribulation, because all three ways can be supported by the Bible if you look at it the right way, and all three ways have apparent inherent contradictions.